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    Experience gaining?

    Venom31 14 years ago
    In Fallout 2 you get waaaay much more experience for most quests, so it's like that way. Rather no-brainer, Diablo 2 gives XP for monsters only (almost, as far as I've noticed, quests give so small tiny bit of XP) and something special for quests.

    EDIT: A search resulted in finding that Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines had such system, encouraging to non-standard problem solving. Haven't played it, but they say it's not bad.

    EDIT2: A further search resulted in finding a possible solution for some tabletop RPG. May be hard to distinguish in actual numbers and algorithms, but anyway, here you go:
    Level advancement
    Some words about shounen
    In a blog of some Game Master Radaghast Kary
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    MageKing17 14 years ago
    "Venom31" said:
    You must be joking . There is no need for GCD mod to DS. Its original system looks just like that. In a minimum scale, but the idea is pretty much the same.

    EDIT: And yes, it works badly in DS (Dungeon Siege). That system there gives no chance of multiclassing. Multiclass characters are hell as hard and not convenient to play...
    If it worked that way in Dungeon Siege, the term "multiclass" would have no meaning in it.
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    Narvius 14 years ago
    There were three stats and four skills (str, agi, int; melee, ranged, magic type 1, magic type 2 - I can't recall *what* magic types these were, I think chaos and nature or something like that. I can't remember). Str raised by melee fighting, agi by ranged fighting, int by spellcasting. You would get a class label depending on what stat is the highest. Due to it being a hack'n'slash, you didn't really need more than one way to kill stuff - therefore you always had only one stat high. Multiclassing in this case is skilling multiple stats at once.
    It sucked.

    On the other hand, I liked how potions could only be used partially (like, one potion is 800 points of healing, but you only use up 200, 600 remains. It was even visible on the icon how much was left) :>
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    MageKing17 14 years ago
    "Narvius" said:
    There were three stats and four skills (str, agi, int; melee, ranged, magic type 1, magic type 2 - I can't recall *what* magic types these were, I think chaos and nature or something like that. I can't remember). Str raised by melee fighting, agi by ranged fighting, int by spellcasting. You would get a class label depending on what stat is the highest. Due to it being a hack'n'slash, you didn't really need more than one way to kill stuff - therefore you always had only one stat high. Multiclassing in this case is skilling multiple stats at once.
    It sucked.
    I can imagine. That sounds more like a "protoform" leveling system, rather than the fully fleshed-out and developed system that is Galsiah's Character Development.
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    Venom31 14 years ago
    "Narvius" said:
    Multiclassing in this case is skilling multiple stats at once. It sucked.
    Sheesh, yeah. Even though pumping up one skill brought all stats up (at different speed). I think this system just couldn't be multiclassed in DS. MW is other thing.
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    ville 14 years ago
    "Venom31" said:

    EDIT2: A further search resulted in finding a possible solution for some tabletop RPG. May be hard to distinguish in actual numbers and algorithms, but anyway, here you go:
    Level advancement
    Some words about shounen
    In a blog of some Game Master Radaghast Kary

    That was kind of like we had for the Alien in Notrium, you leveled by filling the requirements for a level, and those were killing different enemies. I always thought it worked for the game, since it required you to flex your skills as a player as well.
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    Narvius 14 years ago
    "ville" said:
    That was kind of like we had for the Alien in Notrium, you leveled by filling the requirements for a level, and those were killing different enemies. I always thought it worked for the game, since it required you to flex your skills as a player as well.

    Notrium was a pretty sandboxish game.
    Leveling by meeting requirements in Driftmoon would really be storyline-driven advancement.
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    Luminon 14 years ago
    "ville" said:
    Back to the topic of experience gaining, have you ever played a game where experience is only awarded for quests, and killing enemies gives you something else than experience, like items or skills? I've thought about separating the two because it would be easier to balance.
    One of the best games ever, Deus Ex is an RPG. It has experience and a lot of killing, but the experience is only given on these ocassions:
    Accomplishment bonus
    Progress bonus
    Exploration bonus
    Area location bonus

    I don't think there is any experience for killing. Most of the enemies give a modest loot (if they aren't completely exploded) in form of ammunition or less or more basic weapons. Sometimes they hold a key. Therefore, a player with full arsenal (who has no use for crude pieces like shotgun or assault rifle) can with clear conscience sneak past by crowds of enemies without suffering any penalty in later progress. The player is also motivated to use fully the capabilities of 3D space and discover some unusual locations, like air vents, rooftops, ledges, underwater tunnels, usually providing some kind of loot. (often next to remains of a previous explorer) For example, a high ledge in the city hides someone's forgotten sniper rifle and night vision goggles.

    Experience can be only used on increasing skills. Special abilities are determined by augumentation canisters which are not easy to find.

    As for Driftmoon, I think that things like accomplishment bonus or area location bonus are fine. But Driftmoon is basically 2D, there is not so much exploration to be done, so getting XP from killed enemies is fine too. Besides exploration, there might be XP bonus for some really ingenious solution for a quest. Instead of straightforward killing an enemy, it might be more XP-profitable to do something indirect, like loose a big boulder on a hill above the enemy's house, or throw some poisonous mushroom into the enemy's water source. Or sprinkle some magical gigantifying dust over ants crawling in his house
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    unsfa 14 years ago
    Are there maybe some kind of content / engine / debug events that could conveniently just be counted the first 2-4 times they occur and used for experience? Like: "first blue plant seen: 3 xp; 2nd: 2xp; 3rd: 1xp" or "first time hit by sword: 3xp", "first time hitting something with a sword: 3xp"... Or every time a new resource (uhm... texture / sprite / sound / whatever) is accessed for the first time. Something like that might just coincidently almost fit and a few manually added xp events should take care of the rest.
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    ville 14 years ago
    @Luminon: XP for ingenious solutions is a must. The first levels didn't yet have much of this because they were pretty simple, but I'm going to add more of this to later levels.
    I've gone the route of giving some XP for enemies, but few enemies have loot. I thought it was pretty cumbersome to have tons of similar weapons in the preview, the important items got lost in the junk.

    @unsfa: Talking about achievements right? I do like achievements, especially if they fit the game, as exploring achievements probably would suit Driftmoon. I'll have to think about it.
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    unsfa 14 years ago
    "ville" said:

    @unsfa: Talking about achievements right? I do like achievements, especially if they fit the game, as exploring achievements probably would suit Driftmoon. I'll have to think about it.
    Well, I wouldn't call it achievements - I'd just take a look at what happens, if all of the scripting events / engine objects or however that stuff works in den background add a small amount of XP the first few times they are accessed. Mostly info, that's already used / accessible for debugging anyway... Although the access of "technical resources" on a programming or "multimedia content" level might not be directly causally related to "player Achievements", I'd guess that the amount of them might just correlate really good with "stuff the player should be rewarded for" most of the time.

    Like: In a special place, there's automatically a high amount of unique / new textures, scripts or sounds or whatever, that get accessed there for the first time. Using the right and/or interesting dialogue options usually flips a few variables for the first time... And during puzzle solving of any sort, the player is likely to make blalba.item.draggable() or whatever run for the first few times unless he has already been dragging similar items around just for fun in another place (and been rewarded at that time). Stuff adds up.
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    Amarth 14 years ago
    "unsfa" said:
    Although the access of "technical resources" on a programming or "multimedia content" level might not be directly causally related to "player Achievements", I'd guess that the amount of them might just correlate really good with "stuff the player should be rewarded for" most of the time.
    This idea reminds me of Valve's Alien Swarm. At the end of a mission, players get XP for achievements. The first time you get the achievement, you get full XP, every time after that, you get half XP. It doesn't make a huge difference, but you'll sometimes do that slightly risky thing again just to get some bonus XP.
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    MageKing17 14 years ago
    In one Deus Ex mod (I think it may be Shifter, a popular gameplay mod), you do get XP for killing enemies, but you get more for successfully sneaking past them. If you get the sneak XP, you can't get the kill XP, and vice versa. Mind you, this is based on some old memories and I may be misremembering.
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    E_net4 14 years ago
    I recall that in Al'Qadim - The Genie's Curse you received experience by making progress in the story. And in Castle of the Winds, disarming traps also gives exp. (traps in Driftmoon? Yes, please. )
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    ville 14 years ago
    Traps, could be. How would you disarm them? Using the dialogue system (dialogue minigame), or by clicking on them if you can spot them (cut the rope etc.)?
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    MageKing17 14 years ago
    "ville" said:
    Traps, could be. How would you disarm them? Using the dialogue system (dialogue minigame), or by clicking on them if you can spot them (cut the rope etc.)?
    The latter seems a better system off-hand; doesn't feel overly artificial.
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    E_net4 14 years ago
    "ville" said:
    Traps, could be. How would you disarm them? Using the dialogue system (dialogue minigame), or by clicking on them if you can spot them (cut the rope etc.)?
    Well, Castle of the Winds is a bit old, so you may not want to follow it by heart. Anyway, after a trap is spotted (they're initially invisible), you can use the disarm command and select the trap. After some game time either the trap is disarmed (just disappears), the player fails to disarm the trap, or he sets it off by mistake. Intelligence increases the chance of disarming traps.
    But yes, being able to cut ropes and stuff like that is a good approach.
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    Crazy 14 years ago
    Right, i've not actually been able to preorder (i currently have a whopping 0,22 EUR to my name) but i'd like to throw a quick two cents in.

    When playing games that allow you other options than fighting, i've noticed that Deus Ex was really the one that i felt most comfortable with. The thing is that going down the path of multiple choice problem-solving, we as players begin to expect some sort of level of freedom. If the game tells us that we don't have to fight, we can sneak past, we start to wonder why we can't use diplomacy or set some sort of trap. Deus ex was wonderful because it kept your character balanced at all times - as Yahtzee said, you could pour your exp into guns or sneaking or hacking or the cello and there would always be enough enemies or air ducts or computers or incomplete string quartets to get you through. The entire game was built on that premise. And it rocked. The question is - does Ville have the resources to create that kind of experience?

    IMH(and non-beta-played)O, just focusing on the combat can work just as well. I loved building my melee character in KOTOR (another game that sort of failed at being Deus Ex - the non-combat options were always kind of on the sidelines) and the main reason for that was because i could do something clever with it. Instead of just getting my damage higher, i took every little perk i got towards doing as many attacks per turn as i could and worked on negating the fact that my To Hit was shot to hell. In retrospect, 90% of people built their melee chars like that in KOTOR because of how much damage it ends up doing. All of the damage. All of it. But it was still a hell of a lot of fun.

    I...

    I don't know where exactly i was going with that.
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    Pete 14 years ago
    And I just put absolutely everything into Force lighting.

    As a lightside player. How come it worked, again? But yes, Master speed did help, too. That and stimulants spam.

    Dont exactly know why I wanted to share th- oh yes. Ville, needs more lighting bolts already!
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