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Forum » ?????Real Talking/Thinking Bots????? This is not an advert.

?????Real Talking/Thinking Bots????? This is not an advert.

speedblade 17 years ago
I'm Sorry I put "This isn't an advert" on the title because it seems that idiota has or had gotten a bad habit of deleting a topic that smells like a bot-posted topic. This might make you wonder about one of the world's greatest questions and I don't want to take the chance of having it deleted.

FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT WANT TO GET TO THE TALKING/THINKING BOT NOW, SCROLL ALL THE WAY DOWN AND CLICK ON THE LINK.


Ok now real bots, do you think that bots can think or can they not? Have you ever wondered about whats diffrent between the ways we learn words and bots learn words? Don't you ever wonder that if a bot was worked on enough and knew all the words and its meanings and can replie back specificly that if a bio-computer(our brains) function any diffrent from a programmed bot?

Well, you hear a new word you dunno the meaning of and you are told the meaning and when you hear that word again you remember what is means. Now say a bot can go into an internet directory and find of the meaning of any word and if finds a word its doesn't know in that meaning it searches the meaning of that word also and so on until it knows the meaning of the words read by the bot(All Positive, Negative, or informational words).

But now, how should it use it's wide collection of words? How do we use our words that we know of? If you think about it we use our words based on our experiences with other people, like when you hear "Pizza" you have a good feeling torwards that word because somebody told you it's good food or when you hear someone say "PlayStation3" you would have a bad feelings torwards it and use negative words when you speak of it to someone.

The bot now has all knowlage of of all words and starts talking to people online, it would store all positive and negative information about people's statements about this certain words they use, Then the bot would make it's impression about this word, lastly it might just dump the phrase the person has spoken and keep it's impression about that word to save space.

Now that you have read this, ask yourself: Is our brains any diffrent from that of a computer? If so what makes us have that ability that computers cannot have? What MADE our brains the way it is in the first place? If our brains can and are made the way it is then why can't/don't we make AI brains just like ours?


I am sorry for any grammer, typos, and/or misspells. Let the discussion be started here or be resumed on the site's forums. (If that is even possible? It seems inactive.)

Link to a site with a real bot: http://iniaes.org
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The Gemini 17 years ago
I've met several such conversation AIs lately. Like Smarterchild on MSN.
However, what is important to remember is that these AIs does not think. All they are doing is following their complex programing.
Allthough I do find it amusing to chat with them.

I do not believe we will create such complex computer comparable with human brains in many centuries. The complexity and debth of the human brain is nearly incomprehensible for us. We may never create an AI equal to the human brain without knowing the brain and the processeses behind the mind like our own pockets, and that will take time.
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Grim Reaper 17 years ago
"speedblade" said:
Now that you have read this, ask yourself: Is our brains any diffrent from that of a computer?
There is a more-or-less clear difference between a human brain and of a computer. One clear difference, however, is that the human brain is analog instead of digital.

"speedblade" said:
If so what makes us have that ability that computers cannot have?
Perhaps mostly because as soon as computers become close enough to a human brain, they're not considered computers anymore, but perhaps prosthetic brains.

"speedblade" said:
What MADE our brains the way it is in the first place?
Random mutation(s) and evolution.

"speedblade" said:
If our brains can and are made the way it is then why can't/don't we make AI brains just like ours?
Because humanity is just not advanced enough to develop that sort of technology. That, or politics.
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Amarth 17 years ago
AI, as the field of study, is also just completely not interested in making 'thinking machines'. The reason is fairly simple: no economic gain, no successes, no clue on how to start on it. Perhaps once someone makes some revolutionary breakthrough (a so-called paradigm shift - think birth of relativity for physics), there is a chance something will happen towards that goal. But the problem is that paradigm shifts are, well, impossible to predict.

So, what DOES AI do, you might ask? It is fairly successful to create solutions to specialized tasks. Play chess. Analyze pictures. Find a path from A to B. Voice recognition.


Also, keep in mind an interesting comparison. At the end of the 19th century, mankind was a bit divided. The main question was: is it possible for man to fly? And many thought it impossible, even proved it impossible. They compared the human anatomy to that of birds, and concluded that the differences were too big. So man would not be able to fly.

And indeed, man did not fly entirely like birds do. But we managed flight another way. So, perhaps we'll never manage to make computers think the same way we do, but the results might be the same. That is what AI does, it only cares about the result, not the process.

And, eventually, will we have a real thinking machine or not? Seriously, it doesn't matter. Thinking is not a well-defined concept. So that question does not make sense.
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Barebones 17 years ago
Analog computing = the human brain.

I've had a discussion about this before but it was about robot heroes and etc.

The final line is that we are not familiar with our own selves before we can design ourselves. We understand that the human mind uses analog computation solely based on organic molecule properties.

You cannot make the move from digital device to analog device. More likely is that you would have genetically engineered clones made for computing, ala Dune universe with the Mentats.
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Murska 17 years ago
Can the bot make up new words from the old ones, and give them new meanings?
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The Gemini 17 years ago
Well, I've read about some robot dogs who were programed to play football, and instead of giving them specific words to use in communication, they had to make them up themselves. It took some time, but they did actuallly managed to elvolve their own language through cooperation. For example Gradash meant ball, and Drsh meant walk left I believe.
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Anonymous1157 17 years ago
I knew about the dogs, but I didn't know they were supposed to come up with a whole language.

Honestly, the only thing I want from AI is a sandbox game with procedural generation of everything. It's possible, but Spore is the closest thing we have to it so far, and IIRC they developed it for 2½ years and postponed it.

Now, if someone were to try getting robots to learn how to operate themselves...
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Grim Reaper 17 years ago
"Anonymous1157" said:
Honestly, the only thing I want from AI is a sandbox game with procedural generation of everything. It's possible, but Spore is the closest thing we have to it so far, and IIRC they developed it for 2½ years and postponed it.
More like seven years. As WW (Will Wright) said, the development of Spore began sometime in the year 2000.
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Anonymous1157 17 years ago
"Grim Reaper" said:
"Anonymous1157" said:
Honestly, the only thing I want from AI is a sandbox game with procedural generation of everything. It's possible, but Spore is the closest thing we have to it so far, and IIRC they developed it for 2½ years and postponed it.
More like seven years. As WW (Will Wright) said, the development of Spore began sometime in the year 2000.
I thought he had barely come up with the idea back then.
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Grim Reaper 17 years ago
"Anonymous1157" said:
"Grim Reaper" said:
"Anonymous1157" said:
Honestly, the only thing I want from AI is a sandbox game with procedural generation of everything. It's possible, but Spore is the closest thing we have to it so far, and IIRC they developed it for 2½ years and postponed it.
More like seven years. As WW (Will Wright) said, the development of Spore began sometime in the year 2000.
I thought he had barely come up with the idea back then.
At around late 2000/early 2001, I saw this documentary on the TV about robots and AI and such. In a portion of the documentary, they showed this development version of a game, in which you could create your own creatures and such. Sure, it wasn't nearly as sophisticated as the Spore we know today, but it was somewhat similar in its primary aspects.
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E_net4 17 years ago
Well, do you mean that the evolution of Homo Robo Sapiens has still to begin?
"'Real' bot" said:

You: Huh, I'm E_net4!
Iniaes: I can follow all kinds of things, like our discussion about what... but I didn't get that.
This is the answer of a real bot? Oh well...
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MageKing17 17 years ago
"Grim Reaper" said:
"speedblade" said:
If our brains can and are made the way it is then why can't/don't we make AI brains just like ours?
Because humanity is just not advanced enough to develop that sort of technology. That, or politics.
The former. There are people working on developing the technology that will allow us to fully reverse-engineer the brain. We'll be able to make neural nets based on actual human brains. Look forward to it some time during the next decade.
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Amarth 17 years ago
"MageKing17" said:
The former. There are people working on developing the technology that will allow us to fully reverse-engineer the brain. We'll be able to make neural nets based on actual human brains. Look forward to it some time during the next decade.
Let me know when you have had a formal course in AI. Perhaps you'll state things like that with less certainty then.
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MageKing17 17 years ago
"Amarth" said:
"MageKing17" said:
The former. There are people working on developing the technology that will allow us to fully reverse-engineer the brain. We'll be able to make neural nets based on actual human brains. Look forward to it some time during the next decade.
Let me know when you have had a formal course in AI. Perhaps you'll state things like that with less certainty then.
I may have not taken a formal course in AI, but I know people who have. I know of a guy who is, in fact, working on such a project.
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speedblade 17 years ago
"Grim Reaper" said:
"speedblade" said:
Now that you have read this, ask yourself: Is our brains any diffrent from that of a computer?
There is a more-or-less clear difference between a human brain and of a computer. One clear difference, however, is that the human brain is analog instead of digital.

That is certainly true but can you tell me/us more about these diffrences?
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The Gemini 17 years ago
One of the key differences is the process of reaction. While AIs function like this: "If the conditions are this way, then react that way", we on the other hand function like this: "If the conditions are this way, initiate this feeling to make the conciousness do that reaction." The feelings are ofcourse emotions like hatred, greed, love and fear.
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Grim Reaper 17 years ago
Not to forget the random input, which makes a person not react the exact same way every single time, even if the conditions were the same.
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MageKing17 17 years ago
"The Gemini" said:
One of the key differences is the process of reaction. While AIs function like this: "If the conditions are this way, then react that way", we on the other hand function like this: "If the conditions are this way, initiate this feeling to make the conciousness do that reaction." The feelings are ofcourse emotions like hatred, greed, love and fear.
Er, not quite. More like, "I'm being stimulated this way. I will fire neural impulses along this path of neurons, where they will branch here which will cause my emotional state to change thusly, causing me to send neural impulses to the rest of the body, causing it to act this way" (well, not exactly, but closer, anyway). You got the point that most of our thinking is based on emotional states, though.
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Amarth 17 years ago
If so, then how is that hard to emulate for a computer? A bit of fuzzy logic + neural nets, and you're all set.
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The Gemini 17 years ago
The problem is how do we know that the computer feel. If you make an android behaving like humans, and there's no way to tell the difference unless you cut the android in half, does that make that android human? No, that android is just mimicking human behavior, based on a clomplex programming. How do we make a computer feel emotions?
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Amarth 17 years ago
How do humans feel emotions? IF it would be only some chemical stuff going on in the brain, and we knew all about it, would it make our emotions less real?

If not, does it make a difference when we know how the android does it?
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E_net4 17 years ago
I think our emotions have to do with the brains. This might require an android to have a CPU as powerful as a human brain. Unfortunately, a human brain can't just be converted to a digital brain in a mouse click.
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Grim Reaper 17 years ago
"E_net4" said:
I think our emotions have to do with the brains. This might require an android to have a CPU as powerful as a human brain. Unfortunately, a human brain can't just be converted to a digital brain in a mouse click.
Although in a decade or so, there'll be a processor with the calculating capacity of a human brain.
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The Gemini 17 years ago
That's too optimistic. Even with nanotechnology, it would be extremely difficult to achieve. Even a brain of a mouse has more calculating power than a computer.

And besides, processing power plays only a minor part in forming the human mind. The entire brainstructure can be changed and bent at will. You can see it like this: Mind=Brain.
If you change the way you think, the brain will change to make it easier to remain in that pattern. That's how we learn stuff. However, if you change the brain, both structural and chemical, you will change the way you think. That's how medication works on mentally deranged people.

A computer on the other hand is entirely static, and creating a flexible neural net would require tehcnologies way beyond what's state of the art today.
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Amarth 17 years ago
"The Gemini" said:
A computer on the other hand is entirely static, and creating a flexible neural net would require tehcnologies way beyond what's state of the art today.
Evolving software is actually pretty easy. Reinforced learning tools, learning algorithms, ... all exist. Remember, we (or rather, Sony) can create a robotic dog that learns to walk and chase balls - if you choose to stimulate it to do these things. And that one is already a couple of years old.

Okay, so it's a question of scale, perhaps. Then why hasn't it been done yet? Compare Aibo of 1999 with the Beowulf clusters now, and don't tell me we don't have enough computing power these days. Or, if you do, show me some papers on it (on the algorithmic complexity of this stuff, for example).
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speedblade 17 years ago
But no matter how many centuries or eras it may take I still think that robotic behavior/thinking can be the same as human behavior/thinking simply because science is ever evolving and i'm sure we can decifer the human brain the next day from today or the next era/century unless a "soul" actually play a part in how the brain works.

But the problem we are talking about now is how its gonna be done or how is it gonna work? The question is it possible? Not how long it will take for it to happen for those of you veiwing this topic is saying "thats gonna take forever!". but its still ok to talk about how long this or that take, i'm just reminding some of you guys what the actual topic question is.
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The Gemini 17 years ago
Perhaps a simulated brain would be best.
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