AETAS Discussion Thread - Instant Kingdom

GAMES ABOUT US DRIFTMOON NOTRIUM FORUM

Forum » AETAS Discussion Thread

AETAS Discussion Thread

Idiota 17 years ago

Don't get scared by that big post. What's in it is the essence of why I did not join this RP

Thaif 17 years ago

Well that post was fire and brimstone.

Before I say anything I'd like to apologize for any offensive or down right poopheaded things I have said to provoke such a fervent post.

I liked most all the things that I read about Rhenna and her apparatuses, especially I liked the Whip Sword as I have seen that in some movie.

Yet i still hold my stance on the infinite power supply of a Steam Core. Sure you could have that Steam Core, but it would not be infinite, but it would last quite a long time, also it would have 1 distinct advantage over other pressure generating ways: it does not reguire a forge, what this means is that when a Steam Core is attached to a gadged it would work on the pressure that the Core provides, so there would be no need of stacking a large ammount of fuel to generate the heat to boil water to get steam that drives the machine by the pressure of the steam.

The reason for my reluctancy of Steam Cores is that when there is a "Joker" Card like this it will mean that every thing would inevitably be based upon a Steam Core. This in turn would mean that instead of figuring out some inventive new gizmos, people would simply get a Steam Core. And this is what I personally fear the most: Itemization.

This discussion has rapidly degenerated into bickering and finger pointing and the few last pages on this thread have some what shown where the act of self policing can come to at a worst case scenario.

I like the idea of selfrestraint and self policing and of course the notion of helping others to stay on the same course, yet it can go to be a shouting contest.

For the record: I have high regard for all those who have been involved in the EEToEE and the first AETAS as I read them through and there was some good RP stuff in those two threads, and it also seemed that the efforts of "policing" in those two tended not to go so well.

Zombie 17 years ago

Let's not even speak of "policing" in the EEToEE. That had creativity abound, but was policed only by, "Well I block you with my Stuffblocker 5000 so you can't do that!"

Let's talk, instead, about the AETAS's policing methods. The effort of policing in the AETAS was council-based. It failed horridly as it took ages to make simple decisions. I feel a single GM would fail horribly too as we rely on someone who, obviously, could NOT be a player for reasons of fairness. If they decide to disappear then we either have to find another person outside of the RP or someone has to drop out to GM. More about that later, though.

I, however, now understand what my error is with Steam Cores. Analogies seem to work for me, so lets try a few...

The Steam Core I envision is similar to a large battery. I say it is an "infinite" source because it, effectively, is an "infinite" source. It might not have some mystically infinite capacity, but it does have what I like to call a "functionally limitless" capacity. The heavily pressurized steam contained inside of a Steam Core is heat sealed and will retain usability for quite a while. Often one could last a few generations. There are only true Steam Cores in vessels that need the immense amount of stored power that one can provide, others are less effective creations requiring less massive production facilities. They usually are paired with pressurization and steam replenishing mechanisms, as well as a more "simplified" gauge to denote how much stored steam is in the Core. "True" Steam Cores would be large and would be in things like transports between nations, where the power is required. Standard Steam Cores are in vehicles like steamships. Their primary use would be flying craft as they are one of the few kinds of steam storage system with the kick needed to make a steamship rise into the sky.

Using them in land vehicles is plausible, but as there aren't really many weight limitations on land vehicles, larger yeild "steam batteries" (basically smaller capacity, heavier, higher-power Steam Cores) are used. Steam batteries generally are self-contained steam generators, just like a AA battery is a self-contained electric generator. Steam batteries use steam recirculation in order to vaporize more water before the steam condenses back into a main holding chamber. Condensed charcoal blocks with built-in igniters (Zippo-esque with a flint-and-wheel style system) are used to initially ignite the engine. The blocks are in a spring-pressurized slot so, as they burn, they are positioned to retain ignition efficiency. Although, if you are familiar with chemical reactions that can produce heat using certain compounds and water, a starter method similar to that could be used, I suppose. Steam batteries, aside from this steam generator setup, store steam in pressurized chambers. In short, a large steam battery is a moderate-capacity steam core (when full, mind you) attached to a high-yeild steam generator. Steam battery charcoal blocks are, by the way, heavily compressed and made to slowly burn with little to no exhaust.

Smaller steam-containment units (not as highly pressurized as Steam Cores, better for use in weapons or things like that) would be smart, in addition to refill stations or fixtures that would quickly refill and repressurize a steam-containment unit. These devices would likely be built to fit specific devices and would have built-in gauges that depict remaining amount of pressurized steam (there would be residual left over in any steam storage device) in easily understandable or measurable quantities (such as "shots left" for a steam rifle or "hours left" in heating devices) based on average use and research data. Of course, player-made things would have to use more vague percent or pressure gauges.

Keep in mind, though, that these are suggestions. We all need to work together to make the RP work. Not a council of elevated peoples but a group of friends doing something to have fun, not to gain power or control or any such thing. The ONLY ways I see RPs working is either a D&D style RP with rules and dice and stats and such, or a freestyle story RP where everyone realize and acknowledge what is necessary, what should be allowed, and what should not be allowed under any circumstances. We need to all realize that an RP is not a real thing. Gaining ultimate power in an RP does not give you ultimate power in real life, it just makes you seem like an utter ass at times and will almost certainly reduce the amount of fun yourself and others are having. A self-policing model where all or most people involved realize what limits NEED to be imposed AS those limits are approached or broken. Not before. As in, we all need to actually use our common sense and basically be able to tell someone "No, that is unfair" no matter how much they whine. If it needs to be done then we can always eject someone who just wants to cause trouble from the RP. Things like this, however, need to be done on a case-by-case basis.

I'm actually kind of surprised at myself. Idiota's response gave me a bit of an insight into why older forum RP-ers didn't join in and, frankly, I don't blame them for keeping their distance.

Thaif, I owe you an apology. I was outraged at the conduct of a few people I do know and I seem to have completely overlooked what you were saying the entire time. I thank you for stating your concerns in such a clear and concise manner and I do, actually, agree. I just feel that the problem that has occurred with the Steam Core idea is a problem of pure semantics. I mis-stated that a Steam Core contains infinite amounts of steam, but I think I have cleared up that I did not mean literally infinite, but "functionally infinite" or a very, very long time.

If a steampunk RP is going to work, then we have to figure out exactly how, in our world, steam technology is efficient. Steam storage, power, and use all need to be taken into consideration but we don't need to go into insane and asinine detail like environmental concerns or things like that. We still can, mind you, but it is rather asinine as we are, essentially, creating our own world.

Note I'm using "we". Yes, I'm in a good mood and I might reconsider my hasty withdrawal from the RP, if that is alright with everyone. Of course, the word "might" is in there. Keep that in mind. I don't want people coming after me going, "You said you'd rejoin the RP! What the hell?" or anything.

In short, policing an RP is hard. Making an RP work despite some inconsistencies or irregularities is hard. Make no mistake, RPing itself is hard. You have to do things you don't like, but no matter what you know you are having fun. If you learn anything from Cejer's post describing the importance of limits and how worthwhile and fulfilling something is, then learn this: A good RP is hard to make and a bad RP is easy to make. We will have problems but, if we really want to continue and have fun, we must overcome them as they become apparent. If we do this then, no matter how tough the going gets, we will all realize how worthwhile it is and how much we love it. Let's not even speak of "policing" in the EEToEE. That had creativity abound, but was policed only by, "Well I block you with my Stuffblocker 5000 so you can't do that!" Let's talk, instead, about the AETAS's policing methods. The effort of policing in the AETAS was council-based. It failed horridly as it took ages to make simple decisions. I feel a single GM would fail horribly too as we rely on someone who, obviously, could NOT be a player for reasons of fairness. If they decide to disappear then we either have to find another person outside of the RP or someone has to drop out to GM. More about that later, though. I, however, now understand what my error is with Steam Cores. Analogies seem to work for me, so lets try a few... The Steam Core I envision is similar to a large battery. I say it is an "infinite" source because it, effectively, is an "infinite" source. It might not have some mystically infinite capacity, but it does have what I like to call a "functionally limitless" capacity. The heavily pressurized steam contained inside of a Steam Core is heat sealed and will retain usability for quite a while. Often one could last a few generations. There are only true Steam Cores in vessels that need the immense amount of stored power that one can provide, others are less effective creations requiring less massive production facilities. They usually are paired with pressurization and steam replenishing mechanisms, as well as a more "simplified" gauge to denote how much stored steam is in the Core. "True" Steam Cores would be large and would be in things like transports between nations, where the power is required. Standard Steam Cores are in vehicles like steamships. Their primary use would be flying craft as they are one of the few kinds of steam storage system with the kick needed to make a steamship rise into the sky. Using them in land vehicles is plausible, but as there aren't really many weight limitations on land vehicles, larger yeild "steam batteries" (basically smaller capacity, heavier, higher-power Steam Cores) are used. Steam batteries generally are self-contained steam generators, just like a AA battery is a self-contained electric generator. Steam batteries use steam recirculation in order to vaporize more water before the steam condenses back into a main holding chamber. Condensed charcoal blocks with built-in igniters (Zippo-esque with a flint-and-wheel style system) are used to initially ignite the engine. The blocks are in a spring-pressurized slot so, as they burn, they are positioned to retain ignition efficiency. Although, if you are familiar with chemical reactions that can produce heat using certain compounds and water, a starter method similar to that could be used, I suppose. Steam batteries, aside from this steam generator setup, store steam in pressurized chambers. In short, a large steam battery is a moderate-capacity steam core (when full, mind you) attached to a high-yeild steam generator. Steam battery charcoal blocks are, by the way, heavily compressed and made to slowly burn with little to no exhaust. Smaller steam-containment units (not as highly pressurized as Steam Cores, better for use in weapons or things like that) would be smart, in addition to refill stations or fixtures that would quickly refill and repressurize a steam-containment unit. These devices would likely be built to fit specific devices and would have built-in gauges that depict remaining amount of pressurized steam (there would be residual left over in any steam storage device) in easily understandable or measurable quantities (such as "shots left" for a steam rifle or "hours left" in heating devices) based on average use and research data. Of course, player-made things would have to use more vague percent or pressure gauges. Keep in mind, though, that these are suggestions. We all need to work together to make the RP work. Not a council of elevated peoples but a group of friends doing something to have fun, not to gain power or control or any such thing. The ONLY ways I see RPs working is either a D&D style RP with rules and dice and stats and such, or a freestyle story RP where everyone realize and acknowledge what is necessary, what should be allowed, and what should not be allowed under any circumstances. We need to all realize that an RP is [i]not a real thing.[/i] Gaining ultimate power in an RP does not give you ultimate power in real life, it just makes you seem like an utter ass at times and will almost certainly reduce the amount of fun yourself and others are having. A self-policing model where all or most people involved realize what limits NEED to be imposed AS those limits are approached or broken. Not before. As in, we all need to actually use our common sense and basically be able to tell someone "No, that is unfair" no matter how much they whine. If it needs to be done then we can always eject someone who just wants to cause trouble from the RP. Things like this, however, need to be done on a case-by-case basis. I'm actually kind of surprised at myself. Idiota's response gave me a bit of an insight into why older forum RP-ers didn't join in and, frankly, I don't blame them for keeping their distance. Thaif, I owe you an apology. I was outraged at the conduct of a few people I do know and I seem to have completely overlooked what you were saying the entire time. I thank you for stating your concerns in such a clear and concise manner and I do, actually, agree. I just feel that the problem that has occurred with the Steam Core idea is a problem of pure semantics. I mis-stated that a Steam Core contains infinite amounts of steam, but I think I have cleared up that I did not mean literally infinite, but "functionally infinite" or a very, very long time. If a steampunk RP is going to work, then we have to figure out exactly how, in our world, steam technology is efficient. Steam storage, power, and use all need to be taken into consideration but we don't need to go into insane and asinine detail like environmental concerns or things like that. We still can, mind you, but it [i]is[/i] rather asinine as we are, essentially, creating our own world. Note I'm using "we". Yes, I'm in a good mood and I might reconsider my hasty withdrawal from the RP, if that is alright with everyone. Of course, the word "might" is in there. Keep that in mind. I don't want people coming after me going, "You said you'd rejoin the RP! What the hell?" or anything. In short, policing an RP is hard. Making an RP work despite some inconsistencies or irregularities is hard. Make no mistake, RPing itself is hard. You have to do things you don't like, but no matter what you know you are having fun. If you learn anything from Cejer's post describing the importance of limits and how worthwhile and fulfilling something is, then learn this: [i]A good RP is hard to make and a bad RP is easy to make. We will have problems but, if we really want to continue and have fun, we must overcome them as they become apparent. If we do this then, no matter how tough the going gets, we will all realize how worthwhile it is and how much we love it.[/i]

Thaif 17 years ago

"Zombie" said:
Steam storage, power, and use all need to be taken into consideration but we don't need to go into insane and asinine detail like environmental concerns or things like that.

I wholly agree.

"Zombie" said:
The heavily pressurized steam contained inside of a Steam Core is heat sealed and will retain usability for quite a while.

Well actually the only thing that a steam engine reguires to work is adequet pressure, not steam or heat, just pressure. The pressure in an standard engine is gotten from the expanding water steam as it is heated. So to my mind there would be no need for a heating if using a steam core, as the pressure it contains is already there.

Oh, and on the subject of "modern" steam tech. I would prolly go insane if some one did an Steam Nanocomputer, 'cause that is impossible, the only computer that works on mechanical principles is Babbage's Difference Engine or a Pinwheel Calculator or some other neat contraption of a same type. Difference engine can solve, in princible, any arithmetic calculations, though it takes more time than a PC or MAC because of its mechanical construction, but it's still better that having 40 Mathematics doing it.

I beg of you all to read the article in Wiki(suprice, suprice) about Steam Engines.
Yes it is long, but having some info on the subject we are discussing is important. If someone has read it, read it again to refresh your memory, as i did.

Murska 17 years ago

Well, haha. I took four VERY largely exaggerated things, a space complex, a laser weapon, a missile and nanocomputers. And now ALL of them have been discussed to prove they are impossible. I don't think anyone thought I was serious, but still. Well, all right, they only talked about space ships, not complexes, but still.

Zombie 17 years ago

"Thaif" said:

"Zombie" said:
The heavily pressurized steam contained inside of a Steam Core is heat sealed and will retain usability for quite a while.

Well actually the only thing that a steam engine reguires to work is adequet pressure, not steam or heat, just pressure. The pressure in an standard engine is gotten from the expanding water steam as it is heated. So to my mind there would be no need for a heating if using a steam core, as the pressure it contains is already there.

The heat sealing would be to retain the pressure already existing. It would not create heat or any such thing. It is simply a layer of the Core's shell made specifically to block heat from entering while also keeping heat inside of the Core.

Pressure does change with temperature, especially when you're using water as the gas to create said pressure. A few degrees difference could possibly lower pressure considerably.

Thaif 17 years ago

Thanks for clarification on the heat issue.

"Zombie" said:
Pressure does change with temperature, especially when you're using water as the gas to create said pressure.

True. The boiling point of said water also depends on pressure. At the bottom of the ocean it's between 300-400 'C and on the surface of Mars witch has 1/10th of Earths atmospheric pressure it's just in the 37 'C zone, ergo: Blood Boils. Though this prolly doesn't matter on Steam Cores I just thought it's interesting.

On a different subject: I hope this world will have a dystopic feel, because Steam without "Punk" doesn't feel right. Personally, I will have plenty of Dystopia on Ironika and it's future.

MageKing17 17 years ago

The Kingdom of Eurothalia is a fairly large country located to the southwest of Überwald. While large in size, it has a low population density, with the largest concentration being in Enthilis, the capital. While Eurothalia still stubbornly claims to be a kingdom, in actuality a monarch hasn't ruled in decades and the Senate wields all the power. This would, under other circumstances, make it a republic... however, as only the most wealthy are eligible, it is more accurately an oligarchy.

Recently, Eurothalia was engaged in a massive landwar in the Northern Wastelands. Most information about this was kept on a need-to-know basis, however, so the vast majority of the military had no idea who they were fighting, let alone why. This was compounded by the fact that the enemy seemed to use exclusively mercenaries... though there were scattered rumors of Überwaldian officers giving orders, but none of these could be confirmed, and it doesn't make sense anyway.

The populace of Eurothalia is unaware of the existence of Ironika, despite the fact that the war took place right next to it.

Thaif 17 years ago

Good, another to the fold. Good to see more "sides" added to the map.

"MageKing17" said:
The populace of Eurothalia is unaware of the existence of Ironika, despite the fact that the war took place right next to it.

Well there isn't Big neonsings saying:"Welcome to Ironika! Hope you enjoy your plundering and pillagin of our feeble citystate!". If the Industrial Counsil decides to establish relations they send an embassador. Ironika keeps a very low profile.

Grim Reaper 17 years ago

Me and MK were even a bit impatient and went on to have a small RP discussion using our Steampunk names earlier today. I wonder if we'll continue that RP thing later on, or if we'll incorporate it in the AETAS directly...

Leego 17 years ago

just spitballin' here, ammm am I allowed to talk about torrents here in these forums?

Grim Reaper 17 years ago

"Leego" said:
just spitballin' here, ammm am I allowed to talk about torrents here in these forums?

1) DEFINITELY the wrong thread to ask that.

2) Torrents? Yes. Warez? NO.

Leego 17 years ago

"Grim Reaper" said:
"Leego" said:
just spitballin' here, ammm am I allowed to talk about torrents here in these forums?
1) DEFINITELY the wrong thread to ask that.

2) Torrents? Yes. Warez? NO.

ohhh woops, missread the name.

ops: sorry

Thaif 17 years ago

Now that the small spam season is over, I would want to know if Teh Grand Map will be done some time in the near future? I am speaking of the one with the states and "sides" n' other details added.

Grim Reaper 17 years ago

*eats a passing tumbleweed* Mmm. Crunchy.

So, Gemini, done anything with the maps?

Thaif 17 years ago

*chokes on tidalwaves of dustpuppies*

The Gemini 17 years ago

"Grim Reaper" said:
*eats a passing tumbleweed* Mmm. Crunchy.

So, Gemini, done anything with the maps?

I tell you, allthough my laptop is back from repairs, it seems to be unable to log on the internet. Either somebody have to finish the mapfor me, or we could wait until I get a new computer.

Thaif 17 years ago

"The Gemini" said:
Either somebody have to finish the mapfor me, or we could wait until I get a new computer.

If someone else does a map it doesn't have the same...uh...Artistic touch as one made by our diligent Cartographer.

And whats a few more month's to wait, right?

The Gemini 17 years ago

I would rather say a few days. I ordered the pc yesterday, and I can tell you, it's one kickass computer!

Thaif 17 years ago

I am happily wrong in this issue, then.

And congrats on the new Electro Dynamo.

The Gemini 17 years ago

"Thaif" said:

And congrats on the new Electro Dynamo.

Thank you.

You might see some more comics in the future now, and it aint gonna be pretty!

Grim Reaper 17 years ago

I still kinda doubt our ability to refrain from powerplaying and overdoing stuff... You people sure about not having a GM?

The Gemini 17 years ago

I think we've kinda matured now. Everybody knows what powerplaying is, so I think its best to solve such matters in union.

Binky 17 years ago

[OT?]Pardon me asking, but... What the heck is this!?[/OT?]

Thaif 17 years ago

@ Binky: This be ya AETAS Forum RP discussion thread.

I'm willling to put some faith in the other player's ability to play it "fair", though I still have that nagging doubt...

MageKing17 17 years ago

I have positively no faith in certain people's abilities to play fair... but I have confidence in the rest, and if they can keep those certain people in line, then I've no objections.

Zombie 17 years ago

Do you have any faith that I'll play fair?

MageKing17 17 years ago

"Zombie" said:
Do you have any faith that I'll play fair?

Not total faith (human fallibility and all that), but yes, I'm fairly sure you've learned from past experiences/mistakes (depending on how you look at them

).

Thaif 17 years ago

The air is filled with the tones of weeping and shoveling. A lone figure is standing beside a long dead gnarled apple tree, a plain iron chest laying next to him, and digging a hole with a rusted shovel, weeping as he does.

Putting aside the tear and gravel covered shovel he picks up the plain iron box and lays it down in the hole gently, trying not to break into tears again. As if not wanting to do it but knowing he has to, he halfheartedly fills the hole, leaving a small mound of dirt.

With a longing sigh, he shoulders his shovel and begins to walk towards the horizon, the sky choked with lifeless grey clouds, hoping against hope that he can some day return to exhume that which is buried beside the gnarled roots of the dead apple tree.

I just had to make some sort of "The End" to this thread. Sorry for the horrid telling & slight melodrama.

MageKing17 17 years ago

Which. Not witch. Very different words.

Thaif 17 years ago

Thanks. Always mix those. Engrish is not my native language...

MageKing17 17 years ago

"Thaif" said:
Engrish

Was that intentional? 0_o

Grim Reaper 17 years ago

"MageKing17" said:
"Thaif" said:
Engrish
Was that intentional? 0_o

'Course it bloody was.

Thaif 17 years ago

Do note that my "The End" to this thread is only a temporary one, seeming as people aren't interested in it right now...I hope they will be, at some point in time, as I wouldn't want to throw my completed fiction to the metaphysical trash can.

Grim Reaper 17 years ago

"Thaif" said:
Do note that my "The End" to this thread is only a temporary one, seeming as people aren't interested in it right now...I hope they will be, at some point in time, as I wouldn't want to throw my completed fiction to the metaphysical trash can.

I do think people ARE interested, but the current Steampunk idea seems to be buried mainly because SOME people cannot agree with each other on how efficient steam technology is, what sort of equipment are allowed in the world, and other such things.

You could always start an RP of sorts yerself, like others have done.

Forum » AETAS Discussion Thread

Post Reply